Kristie

Could you tell us a bit about yourself, background and your current role.

James

I was born in Atlanta, Georgia and started my career doing a computer science major, so I didn't really have much exposure to design and ended up moving out to California, during college. And then that's where I discovered graphic design by way of 3D animation. I tried to work at Pixar, which didn't work out the way I intended but I discovered graphic design and the design industry along the way and fell in love.

I've been a designer for almost 20 years now. Having started on the marketing side where I knew I could get a job and slowly moved into product design and leadership along the way. In my current role, I lead the teams, build products and tell the stories for the most useful, delightful intuitive products for millions of people. It's been a few months here at Tinder so I'm still early in my journey, but I've been really enjoying it so far.

Kristie

And, throughout your career as a designer, what are some of the toughest challenges you faced?

James

I think there's two that come to mind.

The first one, in my 20's, some friends and I started a business of our own without really knowing anything about anything. I was working on the brand and marketing side running campaigns, my friends were inhouse and we'd decided to start an agency and had no idea what we were doing.

The story is, we had our first check in the hand, went to the bank, and they said, 'That's great but what's your business number?' not knowing what it was I went to City Hall where they asked, 'what's your business address?' We went on the local marketplace here called Craigslist and found a cheap spot. We signed the lease quickly. It was just a process of figuring it out and we went through all these different steps to just cash our first check. We didn't even think about trying to get clients for the first three months, we stumbled upon our first client, which got us off the ground and running. But owning my own business was one of the fun things I've done, but also one of the most difficult. When we started to hire people, started to win awards and get clients the next conversations as a leadership team are about, payroll, cashflow, insurance, money and then people management and client management. And one of the phrases my old business partner said is, "Are you able to eat?" meaning do we have enough cash flow so that you can have some money to feed yourself and to feed your family. That phase always stuck with me. It really grounded me and taught me about responsibility.

The second is imposter syndrome, which never gets away from you but over the years, I've been able to let it live in my head and continue to push on anyway. You learn to learn to live with it and learn to manage it.

So those are the two challenges, the burden of responsibility and imposter syndrome, but learning to manage the two has been important for me in my career.

Kristie

I always feel like the people who don't overthink it too much, they seem to end up becoming quite successful unknowingly, because they just keep going without thinking of the outcome too much. But the imposter syndrome is a is a big one, there's been a lot more conversation about it recently in leadership.

James

I always find that like there's always a reason not to do something, right. There's a lot of smart people that I know, who can talk themselves out of anything. I just got tired of hearing myself say talk myself out of it. And so, I use this phrase, 'thinking with your head and thinking with your hands' - thinking with your head, you're going over rationalise things, but thinking with your hands is getting out of your own way, and just doing.

Kristie

I love that. I'm going take that advise in my business.

Moving more internally, what does leadership look like to you beyond just managing a team?

James

Something that I learned when I had my business when we had over thirty people, was how we had to keep them all fed. We had to figure out a way to manage cashflow with people paying, and not paying, so all the trials and tribulations that go along with owning a business. And it really is about at the end of the day -leadership is about sticking your neck out and really saying this is where we're going to go.

The analogy I make is, we're going to run into the darkness together. My job is to be at the front of that and running forward. I'll be the first one to hit that wall, I'll be the first one to trip over the branches but it's my job to understand the context in which everything is happening. And to communicate what the most important thing to focus on is, while you must see the whole picture. You must understand how it's all going to come together. And you must understand how to react and respond to things you can't predict. And be able to lead people, that servant leadership, which I believe in. There were times I where I would go months without taking a salary, feeding myself, just because he had to keep the ship going and to make sure that you have the right team behind you. It really is about making sure that you have the tools in your tool belt to understand where the winds are trying to take you.

Kristie

That's so true, I always believe that people are driven by understanding where they are adding value. If you feel that you're not adding value, you slowly loose the wind in your sails. So, once you can understand or your manager helps you understand where you add value, then you feel focused.

James

Exactly. When I was at this design consultancy called Frog Design. And we were brought into this very large corporation with 1000's of people. They were trying to do a design led transformation of the business, changing the entire direction of the business, through products, brands and everything.

We were working with the Board of Directors on the strategy and considering all the conditions and then trying to communicate it downwards. And we spoke to a customer service rep who said, “well, I have this list of 15 things that I'm responsible for, I’ll get fired if I don't do these 15 things and now, you're telling me there's another 15 things that are going to be on my plate.” And so, my job was to go around and say instead of doing those 15 things, these are the new 15 things that you can completely let go of your other list.

And so, a lot of time if you're on the ground, you don't understand the context behind a lot of these strategic decisions, and it feels like you're just adding work on top of my work.

Kristie

This is a big question I asked a lot of leaders; do you have a design philosophy that you live by?

James

Frog Design was transformational to me. Hartmut Esslinger, who is the founder of Frog Design, who worked with Steve Jobs to develop the very first Apple design language system was inspirational. He was retired by the time I was there, but he would come by the studio every now and then. He was a citizen of the world, so to speak and he always brought inspiration from the most random things around the world. So, the design philosophy is being hyper curious about everything, it's what has driven me because I always ask why, even when working with data, or qualitative insights, I'm curious about how this is going to make it better for people.

Kristie

And is there anything that excites you about the future of design?

James

The internet and digital culture have really brought us all together as a globe. And I think that the more that designs use their talents and power to help create community, is an important job.

If we can really use that global perspective with an empathetic human perspective, to help us consider the human factors a lot more, that's powerful. We're in like a new era of digital development and product development and design, in that we've brought everybody together. Now we must figure out how to behave now that we're all interconnected with the Internet. So, I'm really inspired by what artists are doing, cultural figures, like Jasper Huang who is based out of Hawaii. He uses art around the world to inspire people and really tell the story in his open community. Michael Render, a rapper based out of Atlanta, is using design and products to bring his community together, he started a bank that specifically for underrepresented communities. So, using design to really think about how we all come together as people rather than staying in our own little echo chamber. That's what excites me.

Kristie

Massively. And to follow that, what is the best piece of advice you've been given.

James

I wasn't given it this directly, but the founder of Patagonia, Yvon Chouinard said "If you think and act small, then you'll get bigger. But if you think and act big, you'll get smaller."

I really love that attention to detail. That very clear focus on small things that you can do every day.

Kristie

He's really inspiring.

And any books or podcasts or content you'd suggest for designers?

James

Keeping on that theme of being a citizen of the world. There's a lot of design literature out there. The work of Peter AmeriHealth has been helpful for me and my leadership journey. Kat Holmes is a fantastic design leader; her book Mismatch was impactful for me. I find a lot of fiction books really inspiring. So, Ted Chang is one of my favourite authors right now his, he's completely shifted my point of view on the human experience and what it could be and what it might be.

Kristie

And the last question is, what would you tell your younger self?

James

Enjoy the ride. Don't let your ambition get in the way of learning all there is to learn along the way. Slow down and really take in the scenery, see what's happening, understand the dynamics of why things are happening around you and to you.

I was laser focused on myself and having impact. I don't feel like I took advantage of all the opportunities I had as much as I could have.

Enjoy the ride. Learn all there is to learn. And when you're ready to, you know, take the charge in a leadership role. Feel confident that you're ready.

Kristie

Amazing. Well, thanks so much for joining us today and I look forward to sharing it with the world.

James

Yeah, thanks very much for having me.